03.18.06 - Kenpo in the Carolinas 2006 Seminar
The seminar was held in the main room of the Open Door Baptist Church located on Durant Road in Raleigh, North Carolina. This was the first time an event such as this has been organized and solicited on the “East Coast” and the turnout was better than originally anticipated.
Maria and I arrived at about 8:25am. Sifu had asked us to come early as we had a few things we needed to do prior to the seminar. For one thing, I had my Kenpo dummy (Ed Gruberman) in the back of the truck and he needed to be brought in and set up. Maria had agreed to take pictures for us throughout the seminar so we wanted to get some test shots off before hand to see if lighting was going to be a factor.
I think everyone from TKI that attended was already there so I got dressed and warmed up with them for a few minutes before I started mingling and talking to some of the other folks. Some puzzle mats were setup over in the corner for demonstrations later on in the seminar and of course, Phyl, Walt, and Alex had to go ‘test them out’ and get comfortable. These guys crack me up! They have been throwing each other around on concrete and hard floors for so long, as they rotated off the mat and came over to me, I think each one of them commented on it was like “landing on a pillow”. After a few minutes, they broke up and stepped off the mat.
As Phyl was stepping off the mat, Keith Drankiewicz from Wisconsin approached him and started talking about takedowns. I wasn’t close enough to hear them conversing but I did hear a comment from Keith about how guys of “similar build” need to stick together. It wasn’t long and they were both on the mat. It appeared that Keith was explaining to Phyl a position of arm placement just prior to a take down. It appeared that when the technique was done properly, there was very little ‘muscle’ needed to get the job done – it was more in the technique. Phyl worked the technique out for a few more minutes with him and soon had Keith flipping over to the mat. Keith got up and said “Whoo! That was fun!” They soon wrapped up the lesson and stepped off the mat.
It wasn’t long after that and Vic arrived. He was standing at the door when I noticed him and was working his way into the room. I pointed him out to Maria and then we both went over to say hello. As always, Vic was very genuine and full of positive energy – and already telling stories as he came through the door. After introducing Maria, we backed away and let others have their turn in welcoming him to Raleigh.
We all lined up. Bill Parsons, along with Marty Josey and Vic LeRoux, welcomed everyone to the Kenpo in the Carolinas seminar. After a few words about the itinerary for the day, there was no time wasted as the blue puzzle mats were brought to the center of the action and the day was started with some demonstrations. First up was Larry Lauer with Phyl Parsons dummying for him. After that, Lynn Lane had one of his students, Steve, dummy for him as he did several techniques. They all looked good out there on the mat as it’s always great to see experienced Kenpo guys doing their thing.
Vic started us off with some warm up exercises. After meditating from a horse stance, we started out with some simple leg raises, working our way into some exercises from the horse stance and eventually into some ball kicks and blocking from the neutral bow stance. While doing these basic warm-up drills, Vic focused heavily on maintaining weight over the supporting leg – which is something that Sifu is constantly drilling us on in class. There was one kicking exercise in particular that started with a front ball kick, then went to a rear kick before the foot was placed back in the original position touching the floor. It was surprising to see how many people almost immediately lost their balance during the transition from front to rear kick. As Bill is always telling us, Vic repeated how it was vitally important to be properly aligned over that support leg in order to maintain control of where you want to go. You want to choose where you are going to go next, not be forced to move in a given direction because of dead-legging.
We moved into blocks after a few minutes and Vic discussed how all blocks in Kenpo were actually strikes. He demonstrated the proper angles and went into what he called the “Advanced Blocking Set”. Vic demonstrated how important it was to place the block where it needs to be. Using Lynn Lane for visual reference, he showed how an effective block can quickly become ineffective if the angles and position are off by just a few inches.
After some blocking practice, Vic pulled Marty Josey up to the front of the class to assist as he demonstrated some trapping and checking maneuvers. I will admit, it was awesome to watch Vic as he went through several scenarios, but it just showed me how far I have to go on my Kenpo journey to obtain some of his knowledge and skill.
He then moved on to the topic of trapping. Vic mentioned Bruce Lee and stated that the “Bruce Lee guys” refer to the exercises we were about to do as “pok sau” and “lop sau”. Vic makes this stuff look so easy! The essence of this drill boiled down to trapping and pinning both of your adversary’s hands while tying up only one of your hands, leaving your free hand to strike. Once the adversary is in this position, Vic was able to very easily transition again to maintain control. As we paired off and worked with each other on the floor, Vic approached and used me to demonstrate the drill to me and my training partner. I was amazed at how simply and quickly I was tied into a knot.
Vic discussed how most adversaries are finished after three strikes. He tied this into the exercise we were doing as we had been doing just this. This somehow segued into one of his many stories, but one that sort of surprised me. Somehow he got onto the topic of how Ed Parker always carried a 5-shot Derringer pistol with him everywhere he went. This was very interesting to me as it seemed to illustrate that even though Ed Parker was a highly skilled and powerful individual, he still had a back up plan!
We broke for lunch somewhere around 11:30 am I think and resumed activities again around 1:00 pm. There were some more demonstrations again and this time it was the Purple belts from TKI that got us started off with the Master form up through Blue. I know I’m partial and all but they really did look great out there. As the guys did their thing, I sort of checked out some of the others as they looked on and saw everything from intense scrutiny to admiration on the faces of those gathered around. They finished to a nice warm round of applause before stepping out of the circle. Vic sort of surprised me a little bit, and I’m sure he surprised a couple of Lynn Lane’s students as well when he asked Steve and Randy to come on out and demonstrate some techniques! They came out to the floor without hesitation and proceeded to do several techniques.
Following Lynn’s guys, Vic pulled a couple more guys out of the crowd. It was Carl Britt and Greg Payne who had never met prior to this very moment. Vic said “just go ahead and show us a couple of techniques”. Greg started doing some techniques fast and hard, but with awesome control. At one point, it was apparent that Carl wasn’t wearing a cup and stepped off the mat. Phyl Parsons quickly volunteered and went out on the mat for Greg and they did some more techniques.
Bill Parsons stepped out on the mat next with his Purple belts in tow. He rotated through several techniques with Phyl, Alex, & Walt. I don’t often get to see Bill move at fast speeds as he usually has to slow things down for us as he instructs us in class. This time, he was moving well and it was cool to see him in action. The Purple belts did a great job out there too making Bill look good.
After we concluded with the demonstrations, Vic started to talk about parrying and checking. He borrowed Steve again and went through a series of movements that allowed basically either frustrated an aggressor’s strike or checked him in such a way as to take them out of striking position. He related a tale of Armando Deloa in Los Angeles. Armando is a security guard at a school and found him self in the unfortunate position of being wrestled down and sat on by some gang banger that was trying to punch him from this position. Vic told how Armando was able to parry these blows as they rained down and caused his assailant to strike the pavement instead of Armando’s head! After he turned his knuckles to hamburger, Armando was able to get out from under this guy and take care of business. This story really got me thinking about how effective something like a parry can be. At this point in my training, the parrying that I have used has been part of double factoring and seemed to be secondary to the technique. In reality, I can see now that it could become a much more important feature determining the effective outcome of an altercation. Just one more tool in the tool box.
Vic briefly spoke about the Thai kick and how it can be a devastating kick if used in the right way. He demonstrated how he might use it to take an assailant down to his knees by delivering a Thai kick hard and down to the back of the thigh. Once the opponent is down to his knees, Vic pointed out that most people go down with the foot bent beneath them in such a way that the toes are flexed and the heel is pointing up. A crippling blow can be delivered with a stomp to the Achilles tendon at the back of the heel. If at all possible, remember to flatten your foot out if you find yourself in this vulnerable position.
Larry Lauer was the nest lucky one to be picked for Vic’s demonstrations. Vic went through several maneuvers with Larry that could be described as trapping and hitting. When he was finished, we all paired off and worked out these concepts with a partner. The drill was “trap and punch” with the goal following the “3 strike rule” that Vic had mentioned earlier. As before, Vic made this look so easy! I paired off with a gentleman from the Charlotte area and we began working through the drill. From a matched stance (we were in a right neutral bow), the first move was to pin with the lead arm of the opponent with the trailing left hand while delivering a straight right to the face. When the opponent came in with the unchecked hand, your striking hand came down and trapped that hand over the top of his other hand while at the same time the your left hand comes up for the second strike to the head. This was the cool part because it effectively put you in a position where you were trapping and controlling both of your opponent’s hands with one of yours, leaving one of your hands to take care of business. The final move to the drill was to switch hands again, where the left hand comes down to check and the right hand comes back up for the third strike to the face. This was so cool on so many levels… it is incredibly efficient in motion and the strikes are all point of origin. The attacker is wrapped up and made to feel helpless as he is being drilled repeatedly even though he is trying to escape. You are also using the attacker’s own energy to launch your attacks against him! A very cool drill overall… I just wish we had more time to play with it.
After we all worked on this drill, Vic chose another person from the group to demonstrate on, Ron Ray, an American Kenpo practitioner. He went through the same trapping drill we had been working on but included some extensions and showed us some other things you could do from a control position. It just didn’t seem to matter what Ron did, Vic would just flow into a strike using Ron’s own movements and energy against him. There were several times during the demo that it didn’t even appear that Vic was watching what he was doing so much as he was feeling the movement of Ron. It was awesome to see how fluid Vic was with his movements.
Vic spoke briefly about the benefits of working out with an Ultraman Dummy. He talked about how you could do full leg sweeps and things that you couldn’t do with a training partner without having to worry about injury.
The seminar wrapped up shortly after this and everyone lined up again for dismissal. Before we left, Bill and Marty joined Vic on the main stage and presented a gift. There is a gentleman in Florida that is particularly good with an airbrush. He made a special shirt for Vic that read “Kenpo in the Carolinas 2006” and featured a dragon prominently in the design. It looked great and Vic really appeared to like it.
Before leaving, we did some things that are traditional to Kenpo gatherings. First we lined up according to rank, with the Black belts first and on down to White. We shook hands in the Kenpo fashion and created a single line. When this we done, we did a traditional close known as “Passing the Pain”. Starting with Vic, he delivered a back-fist to the stomach of the person standing next to him and that person continued to the next and so on. When it reached the end of the chain, it came back and Vic was the last one to be hit.
Passing the Pain officially concluded the seminar, however, everyone stuck around for a group photo. It turned out great! The next photo was also a group shot, but it was of the Black belts only. After that, Vic agreed to kick some people in that had recently been promoted. Among those being kicked in was Larry Lauer, recently promoted to 5th Dan. There were several from TKI that were kicked in as well, including Marty, Elliott, Alex, Phyl, and me. After getting through the kick ins, Vic was gracious enough to pose with anyone that wanted a picture. He took dozens of photos in any number of poses. He was great.
Following the seminar most of us went out to a Chinese buffet restaurant (of course), called the Crystal Palace. It’s hard to beat good times and Kenpo fellowship at a decent Chinese restaurant! Following dinner, several of the guys went back to Bill’s place with Vic where he told stories well into the night. Unfortunately I was unable to go with them but I’m sure I’ll here more of Vic’s stories in the future.
It has been a fantastic week for me and Kenpo. It kicked off with a promotion to Orange belt on Monday and finished out with solid Kenpo fellowship with Vic and the others at the seminar. What a blast! I am already looking forward to the next Kenpo in the Carolinas seminar.
This has been a long post and I toyed around with the idea of breaking it up into smaller posts but ultimately decided against that. I know there are at least a few of you out there that read this journal and are familar with TKI, the IKCA, or Kenpo in general. In my mind, this site is a sort of archive of Kenpo as I have been exposed to it I would love to broaden it out a little bit. Go ahead and leave comments and share experiences - we would all love to hear about it. Thanks!
Maria and I arrived at about 8:25am. Sifu had asked us to come early as we had a few things we needed to do prior to the seminar. For one thing, I had my Kenpo dummy (Ed Gruberman) in the back of the truck and he needed to be brought in and set up. Maria had agreed to take pictures for us throughout the seminar so we wanted to get some test shots off before hand to see if lighting was going to be a factor.
I think everyone from TKI that attended was already there so I got dressed and warmed up with them for a few minutes before I started mingling and talking to some of the other folks. Some puzzle mats were setup over in the corner for demonstrations later on in the seminar and of course, Phyl, Walt, and Alex had to go ‘test them out’ and get comfortable. These guys crack me up! They have been throwing each other around on concrete and hard floors for so long, as they rotated off the mat and came over to me, I think each one of them commented on it was like “landing on a pillow”. After a few minutes, they broke up and stepped off the mat.
As Phyl was stepping off the mat, Keith Drankiewicz from Wisconsin approached him and started talking about takedowns. I wasn’t close enough to hear them conversing but I did hear a comment from Keith about how guys of “similar build” need to stick together. It wasn’t long and they were both on the mat. It appeared that Keith was explaining to Phyl a position of arm placement just prior to a take down. It appeared that when the technique was done properly, there was very little ‘muscle’ needed to get the job done – it was more in the technique. Phyl worked the technique out for a few more minutes with him and soon had Keith flipping over to the mat. Keith got up and said “Whoo! That was fun!” They soon wrapped up the lesson and stepped off the mat.
It wasn’t long after that and Vic arrived. He was standing at the door when I noticed him and was working his way into the room. I pointed him out to Maria and then we both went over to say hello. As always, Vic was very genuine and full of positive energy – and already telling stories as he came through the door. After introducing Maria, we backed away and let others have their turn in welcoming him to Raleigh.
We all lined up. Bill Parsons, along with Marty Josey and Vic LeRoux, welcomed everyone to the Kenpo in the Carolinas seminar. After a few words about the itinerary for the day, there was no time wasted as the blue puzzle mats were brought to the center of the action and the day was started with some demonstrations. First up was Larry Lauer with Phyl Parsons dummying for him. After that, Lynn Lane had one of his students, Steve, dummy for him as he did several techniques. They all looked good out there on the mat as it’s always great to see experienced Kenpo guys doing their thing.
Vic started us off with some warm up exercises. After meditating from a horse stance, we started out with some simple leg raises, working our way into some exercises from the horse stance and eventually into some ball kicks and blocking from the neutral bow stance. While doing these basic warm-up drills, Vic focused heavily on maintaining weight over the supporting leg – which is something that Sifu is constantly drilling us on in class. There was one kicking exercise in particular that started with a front ball kick, then went to a rear kick before the foot was placed back in the original position touching the floor. It was surprising to see how many people almost immediately lost their balance during the transition from front to rear kick. As Bill is always telling us, Vic repeated how it was vitally important to be properly aligned over that support leg in order to maintain control of where you want to go. You want to choose where you are going to go next, not be forced to move in a given direction because of dead-legging.
We moved into blocks after a few minutes and Vic discussed how all blocks in Kenpo were actually strikes. He demonstrated the proper angles and went into what he called the “Advanced Blocking Set”. Vic demonstrated how important it was to place the block where it needs to be. Using Lynn Lane for visual reference, he showed how an effective block can quickly become ineffective if the angles and position are off by just a few inches.
After some blocking practice, Vic pulled Marty Josey up to the front of the class to assist as he demonstrated some trapping and checking maneuvers. I will admit, it was awesome to watch Vic as he went through several scenarios, but it just showed me how far I have to go on my Kenpo journey to obtain some of his knowledge and skill.
He then moved on to the topic of trapping. Vic mentioned Bruce Lee and stated that the “Bruce Lee guys” refer to the exercises we were about to do as “pok sau” and “lop sau”. Vic makes this stuff look so easy! The essence of this drill boiled down to trapping and pinning both of your adversary’s hands while tying up only one of your hands, leaving your free hand to strike. Once the adversary is in this position, Vic was able to very easily transition again to maintain control. As we paired off and worked with each other on the floor, Vic approached and used me to demonstrate the drill to me and my training partner. I was amazed at how simply and quickly I was tied into a knot.
Vic discussed how most adversaries are finished after three strikes. He tied this into the exercise we were doing as we had been doing just this. This somehow segued into one of his many stories, but one that sort of surprised me. Somehow he got onto the topic of how Ed Parker always carried a 5-shot Derringer pistol with him everywhere he went. This was very interesting to me as it seemed to illustrate that even though Ed Parker was a highly skilled and powerful individual, he still had a back up plan!
We broke for lunch somewhere around 11:30 am I think and resumed activities again around 1:00 pm. There were some more demonstrations again and this time it was the Purple belts from TKI that got us started off with the Master form up through Blue. I know I’m partial and all but they really did look great out there. As the guys did their thing, I sort of checked out some of the others as they looked on and saw everything from intense scrutiny to admiration on the faces of those gathered around. They finished to a nice warm round of applause before stepping out of the circle. Vic sort of surprised me a little bit, and I’m sure he surprised a couple of Lynn Lane’s students as well when he asked Steve and Randy to come on out and demonstrate some techniques! They came out to the floor without hesitation and proceeded to do several techniques.
Following Lynn’s guys, Vic pulled a couple more guys out of the crowd. It was Carl Britt and Greg Payne who had never met prior to this very moment. Vic said “just go ahead and show us a couple of techniques”. Greg started doing some techniques fast and hard, but with awesome control. At one point, it was apparent that Carl wasn’t wearing a cup and stepped off the mat. Phyl Parsons quickly volunteered and went out on the mat for Greg and they did some more techniques.
Bill Parsons stepped out on the mat next with his Purple belts in tow. He rotated through several techniques with Phyl, Alex, & Walt. I don’t often get to see Bill move at fast speeds as he usually has to slow things down for us as he instructs us in class. This time, he was moving well and it was cool to see him in action. The Purple belts did a great job out there too making Bill look good.
After we concluded with the demonstrations, Vic started to talk about parrying and checking. He borrowed Steve again and went through a series of movements that allowed basically either frustrated an aggressor’s strike or checked him in such a way as to take them out of striking position. He related a tale of Armando Deloa in Los Angeles. Armando is a security guard at a school and found him self in the unfortunate position of being wrestled down and sat on by some gang banger that was trying to punch him from this position. Vic told how Armando was able to parry these blows as they rained down and caused his assailant to strike the pavement instead of Armando’s head! After he turned his knuckles to hamburger, Armando was able to get out from under this guy and take care of business. This story really got me thinking about how effective something like a parry can be. At this point in my training, the parrying that I have used has been part of double factoring and seemed to be secondary to the technique. In reality, I can see now that it could become a much more important feature determining the effective outcome of an altercation. Just one more tool in the tool box.
Vic briefly spoke about the Thai kick and how it can be a devastating kick if used in the right way. He demonstrated how he might use it to take an assailant down to his knees by delivering a Thai kick hard and down to the back of the thigh. Once the opponent is down to his knees, Vic pointed out that most people go down with the foot bent beneath them in such a way that the toes are flexed and the heel is pointing up. A crippling blow can be delivered with a stomp to the Achilles tendon at the back of the heel. If at all possible, remember to flatten your foot out if you find yourself in this vulnerable position.
Larry Lauer was the nest lucky one to be picked for Vic’s demonstrations. Vic went through several maneuvers with Larry that could be described as trapping and hitting. When he was finished, we all paired off and worked out these concepts with a partner. The drill was “trap and punch” with the goal following the “3 strike rule” that Vic had mentioned earlier. As before, Vic made this look so easy! I paired off with a gentleman from the Charlotte area and we began working through the drill. From a matched stance (we were in a right neutral bow), the first move was to pin with the lead arm of the opponent with the trailing left hand while delivering a straight right to the face. When the opponent came in with the unchecked hand, your striking hand came down and trapped that hand over the top of his other hand while at the same time the your left hand comes up for the second strike to the head. This was the cool part because it effectively put you in a position where you were trapping and controlling both of your opponent’s hands with one of yours, leaving one of your hands to take care of business. The final move to the drill was to switch hands again, where the left hand comes down to check and the right hand comes back up for the third strike to the face. This was so cool on so many levels… it is incredibly efficient in motion and the strikes are all point of origin. The attacker is wrapped up and made to feel helpless as he is being drilled repeatedly even though he is trying to escape. You are also using the attacker’s own energy to launch your attacks against him! A very cool drill overall… I just wish we had more time to play with it.
After we all worked on this drill, Vic chose another person from the group to demonstrate on, Ron Ray, an American Kenpo practitioner. He went through the same trapping drill we had been working on but included some extensions and showed us some other things you could do from a control position. It just didn’t seem to matter what Ron did, Vic would just flow into a strike using Ron’s own movements and energy against him. There were several times during the demo that it didn’t even appear that Vic was watching what he was doing so much as he was feeling the movement of Ron. It was awesome to see how fluid Vic was with his movements.
Vic spoke briefly about the benefits of working out with an Ultraman Dummy. He talked about how you could do full leg sweeps and things that you couldn’t do with a training partner without having to worry about injury.
The seminar wrapped up shortly after this and everyone lined up again for dismissal. Before we left, Bill and Marty joined Vic on the main stage and presented a gift. There is a gentleman in Florida that is particularly good with an airbrush. He made a special shirt for Vic that read “Kenpo in the Carolinas 2006” and featured a dragon prominently in the design. It looked great and Vic really appeared to like it.
Before leaving, we did some things that are traditional to Kenpo gatherings. First we lined up according to rank, with the Black belts first and on down to White. We shook hands in the Kenpo fashion and created a single line. When this we done, we did a traditional close known as “Passing the Pain”. Starting with Vic, he delivered a back-fist to the stomach of the person standing next to him and that person continued to the next and so on. When it reached the end of the chain, it came back and Vic was the last one to be hit.
Passing the Pain officially concluded the seminar, however, everyone stuck around for a group photo. It turned out great! The next photo was also a group shot, but it was of the Black belts only. After that, Vic agreed to kick some people in that had recently been promoted. Among those being kicked in was Larry Lauer, recently promoted to 5th Dan. There were several from TKI that were kicked in as well, including Marty, Elliott, Alex, Phyl, and me. After getting through the kick ins, Vic was gracious enough to pose with anyone that wanted a picture. He took dozens of photos in any number of poses. He was great.
Following the seminar most of us went out to a Chinese buffet restaurant (of course), called the Crystal Palace. It’s hard to beat good times and Kenpo fellowship at a decent Chinese restaurant! Following dinner, several of the guys went back to Bill’s place with Vic where he told stories well into the night. Unfortunately I was unable to go with them but I’m sure I’ll here more of Vic’s stories in the future.
It has been a fantastic week for me and Kenpo. It kicked off with a promotion to Orange belt on Monday and finished out with solid Kenpo fellowship with Vic and the others at the seminar. What a blast! I am already looking forward to the next Kenpo in the Carolinas seminar.
This has been a long post and I toyed around with the idea of breaking it up into smaller posts but ultimately decided against that. I know there are at least a few of you out there that read this journal and are familar with TKI, the IKCA, or Kenpo in general. In my mind, this site is a sort of archive of Kenpo as I have been exposed to it I would love to broaden it out a little bit. Go ahead and leave comments and share experiences - we would all love to hear about it. Thanks!


4 Comments:
Good lay out of the day Tom. Even though we were told not to, my only regret from the whole day was I never got to work with any of my class mates. It was great meeting people from other schools,but I felt like I didn't see any of you guys. Besides the playing around Walt and I did in the begining of the day, I never was able to get my hands on any of you.
So let me ask that question, If you could change one thing about the whole day, what would it be?
Thanks for your comments, Phyl!
I took a TON of info away from the seminar. I think Vic enthusiastically shares his knowledge through demonstration and stories and the format of this seminar allowed him to showcase his knowledge very well.
My favorite part of the seminar was working the moves and concepts out with new people, and in answer to your question, I guess I would like some more of that. I realize that the overall amount of material covered in a given timeframe will have to be reduced but, hey, that’s just a good reason to have another seminar, right?
What are your thoughts?
I would agree with you, I beleive the best formet of the day was the partner work. That format of teach a partner drill, and allow the class to work, and then after X period of time add a new phase. I personally enjoyed that format.
BUT, to get the basics from a master, nothing beats that. Just the knowledge he pasted about blocking has got me thinking, not to mention the discription of parrying he gave, THAT alone has changed half my movement(atleast from my perspective, I admit lol).
To get a reinforcement about our training from a master, to know we're on the right track, was a huge motivation for me. To know, we're getting the GOOD stuff from all sides.
What did you think of the demonstrations?
Going through the basics was something that I fully expect from any competent instructor, including Master Vic. It is one of the reasons I enjoy working out with Sifu and everyone at TKI – we drill the basics in every single class.
Vic illustrates in my mind a standard of excellence that is achievable under his tutelage. Reviewing the footage of his moves in my mind’s eye yields all sorts of hidden treasures that, in truth have always been present, but I am just beginning to see. Working with Sifu and his blend of Kenpo & Hapkido has been just as eye opening for me. I always look forward to “seeing” more.
The techniques at the seminar were very good. I enjoyed watching the combination of control and power that Larry Lauer and Greg Payne exhibit. I also like the relaxed flow that Sifu has when he moves. I would have liked to see Vic do some techniques and extensions. I can only imagine what he would come up with.
You [Phyl] were thrown around more than anyone there – what is was your take?
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